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UK Politics - Generation Tory


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1 hour ago, Wullie said:

It's not that tin hat though it's not really about the current government, more about dragging the Overton window to the right in general, it's been going on for years. Someone is definitely paying his way, same with Grimes, same with the nutters from Spiked, all the Tufton St lot. You can see it with someone like Dave Rubin in the US who has been staggeringly financially successful running a secretly funded pure grift for years.

David Pakman (left leaning US YouTube guy) revealed recently that he had the offer made to him years ago, to do a Rubin and become a right wing grifter for money.

My wife is connected to someone who knows him very well (and is very normal) and he used to be fairly normal and has just completely gone off the deep end. It's either a mental breakdown or someone is bunging him a load of cash to amplify his crap. His entire mayor manifesto appears to be related to COVID, so it'll be interesting to see what other trend his hitches his wagon to once we're out of lockdown.

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He allegedly got given a couple of mil. There’s superb money in the white power game even if you’re not a true believer but happy to go along for the ride. For him, it’s probably a healthy mix of wanting the money as well as wanting the attention levels he never hit through his previous life and with no morals to speak of if some people get violently attacked who you don’t much care for along the way then even better.

Like Wullie says it’s all about moving the conversation of what’s acceptable ever further right. Where America leads we will follow only and with an ever more compliant media largely already in place to support in most cases and hold the dissenters and opposition voices to account it’s gonna keep going for a long old time.

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19 minutes ago, Disco said:

He allegedly got given a couple of mil. There’s superb money in the white power game even if you’re not a true believer but happy to go along for the ride. For him, it’s probably a healthy mix of wanting the money as well as wanting the attention levels he never hit through his previous life and with no morals to speak of if some people get violently attacked who you don’t much care for along the way then even better.

Like Wullie says it’s all about moving the conversation of what’s acceptable ever further right. Where America leads we will follow only and with an ever more compliant media largely already in place to support in most cases and hold the dissenters and opposition voices to account it’s gonna keep going for a long old time.

Murdoch no longer owns Sky in the UK.

He only has The Sun and The Times.

The Sun's circulation has been dropping for decades and has probably dragged the rest of the UK's newspaper industry into the dirt too.

The Times is not as influential as it was once regarded.

Geordie Greig has taken over the editorship at The Daily Mail, and apparently wanted to drag it back towards the centre but was warned off this move by a nervous board.

I sincerely believe that most - London-based - newspapers falsely believe that the UK's population has taken a lurch rightward.

It hasn't - the Tories in their efforts to stifle Farage's party, have ended up wearing his clothes and voicing his policies. The majority of the British people have not.

The majority who voted in the 2019 election did not vote for the current PM or his party.

I really feel that we've hit rock bottom, and the rebound is coming.

Nothing lasts forever, and I would confidently imagine that there will be a backlash against the way things are going very soon.

#naivelyconfident

 

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3 minutes ago, kingkerouac said:

Murdoch no longer owns Sky in the UK.

He only has The Sun and The Times.

The Sun's circulation has been dropping for decades and has probably dragged the rest of the UK's newspaper industry into the dirt too.

The Times is not as influential as it was once regarded.

Geordie Greig has taken over the editorship at The Daily Mail, and apparently wanted to drag it back towards the centre but was warned off this move by a nervous board.

I sincerely believe that most - London-based - newspapers falsely believe that the UK's population has taken a lurch rightward.

It hasn't - the Tories in their efforts to stifle Farage's party, have ended up wearing his clothes and voicing his policies. The majority of the British people have not.

The majority who voted in the 2019 election did not vote for the current PM or his party.

I really feel that we've hit rock bottom, and the rebound is coming.

Nothing lasts forever, and I would confidently imagine that there will be a backlash against the way things are going very soon.

#naivelyconfident

 

Country has taken a huge move to the right, since 2016, IMO. The evidence is there - the return of nationalism, bigotry, racism, corruption and selfishness. Things are going to get worse - much worse.

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1 minute ago, Big Geordie said:

Country has taken a huge move to the right, since 2016, IMO. The evidence is there - the return of nationalism, bigotry, racism, corruption and selfishness. Things are going to get worse - much worse.

I don't agree.

The Tories won with about 43% of all votes. The combined share of the 'progressive' parties was closer to 51%.

Most of the examples of racism and nationalism are from those who have been waiting to say the unsayable ...again. The shy racists, as it were.

Like when Kelvin McKenzie was editor of The Sun, he got talking to an angry, white cockney racist in a pub in south London, and made the assumption that all working-class people were like that, hence the crass racism and homophobia of the Sun during his tenure.

I do not think the country has taken a lurch to the right. The government has.

Most of the older white voters who switched from red to blue, did so for Brexit, not because they've become racist and nationalist overnight.

When all of this shit settles, we'll be able to judge things a bit more accurately, but for now, I'm optimistic.

 

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2 hours ago, kingkerouac said:

I don't agree.

The Tories won with about 43% of all votes. The combined share of the 'progressive' parties was closer to 51%.

Most of the examples of racism and nationalism are from those who have been waiting to say the unsayable ...again. The shy racists, as it were.

Like when Kelvin McKenzie was editor of The Sun, he got talking to an angry, white cockney racist in a pub in south London, and made the assumption that all working-class people were like that, hence the crass racism and homophobia of the Sun during his tenure.

I do not think the country has taken a lurch to the right. The government has.

Most of the older white voters who switched from red to blue, did so for Brexit, not because they've become racist and nationalist overnight.

When all of this shit settles, we'll be able to judge things a bit more accurately, but for now, I'm optimistic.

 

I would say the Tories benefitted by the distrust of Corbyn too.

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I’m a bit behind here but I was reading about the Starmer church apology today. Unless I’m missing something obvious about the church, it’s actually ridiculous people feel he should apologise for that. Whatever your thoughts are on marriage, traditional views on it are widely held in churches and other religious communities across the country. It’s not like praising the good charitable work they typically do is a disgrace because they happen to believe what their religious texts say. It’s also not like no other MPs set foot or even regularly attend conservative churches, mosques etc. He had no need to apologise but felt compelled due to the supposedly liberal media. 
 

For the record conservative Christianity is my upbringing. I (thankfully) left it and have no time for many of the teachings on marriage and many other things now. However I feel I can see both perspectives from my experiences. 

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It’s a especially homophobic church that advocates conversion therapy. Absolutely no way should someone in Starmer’s position be associating with it.

If they wanted to praise the work christians do in the community then that’s fine. Just don’t use that church.

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1 minute ago, Smal said:

It’s a especially homophobic church that advocates conversion therapy. Absolutely no way should someone in Starmer’s position be associating with it.

If they wanted to praise the work christians do in the community then that’s fine. Just don’t use that church.

Well it denied offering it despite years of accusations from the media that people have chosen to believe. 
 

What counts as ‘especially honophobic’ anyway? Not agreeing with gay marriage? That’s a common opinion in churches across the UK. May as well just follow all the MPs to ensure they don’t go to carols at any conservative church then. 

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Made a massive rod for his own back now. If he goes to a mosque to meet an already despised minority there’ll be immediate calls from all the right and the press about his hypocrisy if he doesn’t slag them off  in addition to how much he and Labour love Muslims and hate traditional English Christians.

They're so shit it’s untrue, all so avoidable too. 

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2 minutes ago, Wullie said:

That's the problem though isn't it? Every religious organisation is homophobic, and the ones that aren't are lying to themselves about what their book says.

Exactly, just stay away from any of it. I remember during the 2015 election labour had a meeting in a segregated mosque, it looked bad and the attempted justifications made it worse. If you stop using religious buildings for this sort of thing I doubt anyone will even notice.

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Correct me if I’m wrong like, but there’s varying degrees of how true churches are to the original texts, right? Like... fundamentalism etc. which is extremely conservative and anti-gay. Jesus House is one of those?

There wouldn’t have been as much of an uproar (if any) had they used a more progressive church.

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3 minutes ago, Wullie said:

That's the problem though isn't it? Every religious organisation is homophobic, and the ones that aren't are lying to themselves about what their book says.

Essentially, yeah. Some churches and mosques et al are more liberal than others of course but we’re talking traditional views on marriage here shared by a large proportion of the religious community. I’d have thought pressuring anyone famous who attends/praises a conservative religious building makes more sense if anything.  
 

Jesus House is part of a huge Pentecostal church also and it’s not like they’re Westboro Baptist Church. 

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7 minutes ago, Smal said:

Correct me if I’m wrong like, but there’s varying degrees of how true churches are to the original texts, right? Like... fundamentalism etc. which is extremely conservative and anti-gay. Jesus House is one of those?

There wouldn’t have been as much of an uproar (if any) had they used a more progressive church.

You are right. But conservative ‘anti-gay’ churches are not a rarity or untouched by other politicians and celebrities alike. I went to a conservative church that didn’t agree with gay marriage. They were a very kind community and not anti-gay people in general but felt compelled to agree with biblical teachings, as frustrating as that was. I think many there would rather the Bible taught differently, but that’s the cognitive dissonance everyone has. I can see that perspective still as it’s not like the conservative Christian community is hostile to the gay like people would make out (though sadly homophobia is a problem). 
 

For the record I went to a large and well known church in Newcastle. They get thousands through their door for carols every year and I’m sure most won’t agree with their stance, but their attendance isn’t seen as controversial. 

Edited by St. Maximin
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It has but by British standards it’s not unusually conservative, homophobic etc. The views are very commonly held across Christian communities and have been for years. 

Essentially he apologised for visiting a church that holds traditional Christian values, which is what millions do a year in the UK in some way or another. 

I also don’t know where we draw the line. If Starmer has to apologise for the then fine, but then it’s perfectly legitimate to then bring up Corbyn’s meetings with Hamas. I’d love to see how their views on homosexuality compare with Jesus House. Probably not well. 

Edited by St. Maximin
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16 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

You are right. But conservative ‘anti-gay’ churches are not a rarity or untouched by other politicians and celebrities alike. I went to a conservative church that didn’t agree with gay marriage. They were a very kind community and not anti-gay people in general but felt compelled to agree with biblical teachings, as frustrating as that was. I think many there would rather the Bible taught differently, but that’s the cognitive dissonance everyone has. I can see that perspective still as it’s not like the conservative Christian community is hostile to the gay like people would make out (though sadly homophobia is a problem). 
 

For the record I went to a large and well known church in Newcastle. They get thousands through their door for carols every year and I’m sure most won’t agree with their stance, but their attendance isn’t seen as controversial. 

Understood, but (and this is a predictable but, yet still valid point) I’m guessing they didn’t feel compelled to agree with all of Leviticus.

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3 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

Understood, but (and this is a predictable but, yet still valid point) I’m guessing they didn’t feel compelled to agree with all of Leviticus.

Perhaps not. I never really asked to be fair. I didn’t like a lot of what was taught (even less now), but I’m sure many were in the same boat there. It was pretty complicated trying to justify holding certain beliefs (and not others) and I’m sure many felt likewise. There is a section of the conservative Christians who think the gay community is a constant threat to them but luckily they don’t speak for everyone. 

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3 hours ago, Happinesstan said:

 

Whereas I don't dispute the media did a job on him, some of us oldies remember him from the 80's and 90's and I personally wouldn't trust him to stand up for the British people.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Wullie said:

That's the problem though isn't it? Every religious organisation is homophobic, and the ones that aren't are lying to themselves about what their book says.

Surely the Catholic Church isn't homophobic. Or is it not homosexual until they reach the age of consent?

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13 hours ago, St. Maximin said:

I’m a bit behind here but I was reading about the Starmer church apology today. Unless I’m missing something obvious about the church, it’s actually ridiculous people feel he should apologise for that. Whatever your thoughts are on marriage, traditional views on it are widely held in churches and other religious communities across the country. It’s not like praising the good charitable work they typically do is a disgrace because they happen to believe what their religious texts say. It’s also not like no other MPs set foot or even regularly attend conservative churches, mosques etc. He had no need to apologise but felt compelled due to the supposedly liberal media. 
 

For the record conservative Christianity is my upbringing. I (thankfully) left it and have no time for many of the teachings on marriage and many other things now. However I feel I can see both perspectives from my experiences. 

True enough.

The Catholic Church's views on homosexuality are still pretty retrogressive too, don't see any furore over them.

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